Kevin Doyle.
With what environmental organization are you affiliated?
I’m one of two national program directors at The Environmental Careers Organization (authors of the new book The ECO Guide to Careers That Make a Difference — see below). At least, that’s my current title. I’ve worked for ECO since 1984, and in that time I’ve been Pacific Northwest regional director, national general manager, director of programs, director of development, director of program development, and four to five other titles. I like to move around and do different things, and I’m fortunate that ECO has needed an executive to do exactly that over the years. If you’re going to stay at the same organization for over 20 years, it helps to shake things up every two or three years.
What does your organization do?
ECO operates paid internship and fellowship programs for future environmental professionals. We have more than 20 different programs that recruit and place college students and recent graduates on challenging, professional-level assignments at government agencies, nonprofit organizations, and private companies. Every year, we hire over 530 new “associates,” and we put them to work on assignments that range from three months to two years in length. All associates work full-time, and all earn competitive stipends or salaries.
Most of our associates (sometimes also called interns or fellows) are placed at agencies in the federal government. We also have programs with nonprofit organizations, including a Boston Environmental Justice Leadership Program here, and a Sustainable Communities Leadership Program in California.
What do you really do, on a day-to-day basis?
Ha! If I even have an “official” job description, it’s almost certainly something we wrote just to have it in the file. What I really do on a day-to-day basis varies wildly.
Over the last two years, I had the incredible pleasure of working with a woman named Beth Ginsberg, who is now a corporate accountability program manager at CERES (Coalition for Environmentally Responsible Economies) here in Boston. We both believe that “environmental” work has become a subset of “sustainable economy” work, and that this change has widespread implications for how people prepare for environmental careers, and how they define success after graduation from undergraduate or graduate school.
We came up with the idea of a book that would essentially be a set of conversations with leading innovators, activists, businesspeople, and scholars like architect Bill McDonough, ecotourism leader Martha Honey, conservation biologist Stuart Pimm, and environmental justice scholar Robert Bullard, among others. From there, Beth did most of the work! But, like so many program directors, I end up sharing the credit for The ECO Guide to Careers That Make a Difference.
How many emails are currently in your inbox?
I have 21 emails in my mailbox, several of which are from college students and job seekers looking for help. ECO gets something like 25,000 unique visitors to our website every month. People really want to do this work.
Who’s the biggest pain in the ass you have to deal with?
OK, I’m supposed to be honest here, right? I think the biggest pain for me is people who talk a good game about how important ecological protection or sustainable economics is, but who seem to have only bumper-sticker understanding of what’s actually involved. Or, conversely, people who are convinced that environmental problems are way overblown, but obviously don’t know what they’re talking about once the conversation gets one level below the surface.
Our ecological, social-justice, and economic security crisis is so important, and so complex. The older I get, the more frustrated I get by sloppy thinking — including my own!
Who’s nicer than you would expect?
I’m glad you asked. It gives me a chance to offer applause to two groups of people that take so many unfair hits: federal government environmental employees and corporate environmental managers. So many of these people are struggling every day to make their huge and hidebound institutions more effective. Just as one example, I think the people who staff the refuges of the national Fish and Wildlife system are national heroes. And they are just so nice.
Where were you born? Where do you live now?
Born in Brainard, Minn. Grew up in Fairfield, Iowa. Live with my wife, Deb Mapes, in Watertown, Mass., a couple of miles from Harvard Square.
What do you consider your environmental coming-of-age moment or experience?
I’m absolutely a bookworm, and environmentalism came to me from books. Thoreau’s Walden, E.F. Schumacher’s Small is Beautiful, anything and everything by Wendell Berry, the Worldwatch “State of the World” reports, RAIN magazine, text books, science books, and so forth.
I’ve had a chance to talk to hundreds of people about their answer to this question, and I’ve been struck by how many people trace their moment to outdoor recreation. I was actually well along in years before wild nature really began to move me. It was really books, ideas, and politics that got me going. Now, it’s people.
What has been the worst moment in your professional life to date?
It is very much connected to the comment above about knowing your stuff. I gave a university talk all full of passion about the need to put a finger in the dike that holds back ecological destruction, and a scientist in the audience skewered me — demonstrated through his questions that I just really didn’t know what I was talking about. Very, very bad day.
What’s been the best?
Much harder to answer — impossible, actually. I have an awful lot of good days. Leading an ECO workshop or conversation that really connects is pretty high on the list. Connecting people who need to be connected is right up there. Sending off a final manuscript! That feels very good.
What environmental offense has infuriated you the most?
The media response to Bjorn Lomborg’s The Skeptical Environmentalist and similar books and articles just makes me want to scream. Not Lomborg himself, but the way the media tries to achieve “balance” on environmental concerns with simplistic “for and against” debate formats that shed lots of heat, but no light at all. We desperately need better political journalism, environmental journalism, and science journalism.
[Editor's note: See non-faux-balanced Grist coverage of Lomborg here.]
Who is your environmental hero?
I have three kinds of heroes — thinkers, professionals/managers, and citizens. And they are far, far too many to mention, so I’ll just name a tiny handful.
Of thinkers, Wendell Berry is definitely a hero. Perhaps because I grew up in a small town in the rural Midwest (although not as a farm boy), his thoughts really resonate with me. I don’t agree with everything he has to say, but he cuts through so much B.S., and he writes like a dream. Jeremy Rifkin always gives me food for thought, too.
Among professionals/managers, I have a great respect for the career of Gus Speth, who is now the head of Yale’s School of Forestry and Environmental Studies, but who seems to have done just about everything.
Closer to home, I have a freelance environmental journalist friend just down the road named Dan Grossman, whom I admire greatly — and not only for his work. Even as a citizen and a parent, he’s a good model for environmentally sound living that isn’t all grim and self-sacrificing.
Who is your environmental nightmare?
Any smug person who doesn’t want to think about the consequences of their actions on other people, the natural world, or the future.
What’s your environmental vice?
Well, there’s certainly more than one! One that I’m not proud of is using more heat at home than I really need to. I mean, I could just put on a sweater.
How do you get around?
It is so easy to get around Boston by bus and subway — and by walking. I really do try to avoid using the car whenever I can.
What are you reading these days?
Environmentalism and the Technologies of Tomorrow by Robert Olson. Great stuff. I also enjoyed The Hype About Hydrogen.
What’s your favorite meal?
Breakfast! Granola, fruit, and soy milk with dark-roast black coffee. For dinner: striped bass, baby potatoes, asparagus, mixed greens, and wine.
Are you a news junkie? Where do you get your news?
Absolutely a news junkie. Boston Globe, New York Times, Economist magazine, E magazine, Environment, Nature (the summary parts anyway), Grist, SustainableBusiness.com, SolarAccess.com, ENN.com, government reports.
Which stereotype about environmentalists most fits you?
I would say that I’m a bit too reflexively left-wing in my politics, more skeptical of business than of government, and perhaps somewhat too harsh when judging fellow Americans. I’m an almost-vegetarian, too, if that’s still an eco-stereotype.
What’s your favorite place or ecosystem?
Easiest question yet — Point Reyes National Seashore and surrounding area of Marin and Sonoma County in Northern California. It’s bliss.
If you could institute by fiat one environmental reform, what would it be?
Make it government policy to reduce our fossil-fuel consumption by 50 percent in 20 years.
Would you label yourself an environmentalist?
I would absolutely call myself an environmentalist, and proudly. To me, an environmentalist is a person who actively considers the long-term needs of other living beings, and of the natural systems that support them, in all personal and political decisions.
What’s one thing the environmental movement is doing particularly well?
Maintaining and expanding the national consensus that development sprawl isn’t a great thing, and that we can do something about it through policy, land purchases, and so forth. There was a great op-ed in The New York Times by Will Rogers, head of the Trust for Public Land, showing that even as President Bush was winning the presidency with a less-than-stellar environmental record, people everywhere were approving bond issues and other measures aimed at protecting land and water resources they care about.
What’s one thing the environmental movement is doing badly, and how could they do it better?
We’re failing to make the case that ecological health, economic security, and social justice are mutually reinforcing goals, not competing interests. To do better, we need to highlight examples that people can really relate to without using technical jargon or policyspeak. We really need to work on our language — telling the story of sustainability through stories and concepts that are part of our current everyday world.
What important environmental issue is frequently overlooked?
The plight of environmental refugees — people whose lives or livelihoods are adversely affected by senseless ecological destruction that leads to floods, drought, desertification, deforestation, coastal erosion, and so forth.
What was your favorite band when you were 18? How about now?
Definitely The Who when I was 18. Now, at 47, I tend more toward U2, but I also have a real soft spot for all singers — past (Ella Fitzgerald) and present (Diana Krall) — who can do a good job with the great American songbook of Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Irving Berlin, Rogers and Hart, and all those guys.
What’s your favorite TV show? Movie?
Currently, The West Wing is about the only show Deb and I watch, unless the Red Sox are playing. We just saw Sideways at the theater, and loved it. Past movies? Anyone who doesn’t appreciate All the King’s Men needs help.
If you could have every InterActivist reader do one thing, what would it be?
Spend some serious time thinking about what would need to happen for your own community to be “sustainable.” Then start talking with other people about it.
Dreamwork
Kevin Doyle, The Environmental Careers Organization.
Which environment-related fields do you see growing fastest right now? What type of jobs do you see declining in the future? — Name not provided, Nashville, Tenn.
There are several answers to this question posted on the ECO website. If you go to our Career Tips section and click on the one for September 2004, you’ll find detailed data on growth rates (up, down, or steady) on several representative job titles, along with salary information. Also, if you visit our publications section, you can read (or download) the introductory chapter of our 1999 career guide, with answers that are still fairly accurate. Click on The Complete Guide to Environmental Careers in the 21st Century and read chapter one.
Finally, if you read our 2004 book, you’ll find a sector-by-sector breakdown with answers to the “what’s hot and what’s not” question. The book is called The ECO Guide to Careers That Make a Difference: Environmental Work for a Sustainable World.
If those sources don’t give you what you’re looking for, here’s a short list of ten job titles that seem pretty fast-growing right now. Keep in mind that “fast growing” can be measured against a very small base (with the result that the total number of jobs is still small), or it can be measured against a large base (with the result that almost anyone with a background in that field gets lots of job offers).
Kevin’s extremely subjective list of growing environmental jobs:
- Conservation biologists
- Ecosystems managers
- Information systems/geographic information systems specialists
- Global climate-change scientists/researchers
- Renewable-energy specialists/energy management
- Environmental/land use/regional planners
- Policy integration specialists
- Community organizers
- Fundraisers (nonprofit), or business development pros (for profit)
- Industrial ecologists
- “Dual track” environmental professionals (e.g. economics and engineering, environmental science and MBA, etc.)
- Environmental health/public health professionals
- Fuel-cell researchers/engineers
For another take, here’s a list of “expanding professions in an eco-economy” from the Earth Policy Institute’s excellent book Eco-Economy by Lester Brown:
- Wind meteorologists
- Family-planning midwives
- Foresters
- Hydrologists
- Recycling engineers
- Aquacultural veterinarians
- Ecological economists
- Geothermal geologists
- Environmental architects
- Bicycle mechanics
- Wind turbine engineers
In all the punditry concerning the “hydrogen economy” and the alternative-energy industry, no one ever talks about jobs. Will an alternative-energy infrastructure be able to replace or even exceed the job opportunities currently provided by our petroleum-based economy? — Nick Gray, Dayton, Ohio
Maybe I just hang out in a geeky crowd, but I find that there is a lot of talk about the employment impact of shifting from fossil fuels to more environmentally benign energy sources. You’re right, however, that there is no short answer to the question of how the final jobs equation will balance out. That’s largely because all of our projections are guesstimates, based on different assumptions about which direction we’ll take. So, the comments below are some impressions from the conversation that’s going on out there, with some suggestions for websites and reports that you might look at to join the conversation.
Let’s start with the resources. Good places to visit regularly are: Renewable Energy Access, Clean Edge, GreenBiz.com (my favorite starting place for energy resources), Rocky Mountain Institute, American Wind Energy Association, National Hydrogen Association, Renewable Energy Policy Project, Solar Energy Industries Association, and Earth Policy Institute.
If you consider that major energy users are heating/cooling/lighting buildings, and need electricity for appliances/equipment, transportation, and manufacturing, then a few things become apparent.
First, the single most important “alternative” energy source is conservation, by far. We could generate huge numbers of jobs simply through retrofitting structures and industrial processes to be more energy efficient. Of course, these wouldn’t be positions for “environmental” professionals (much less for the chattering policy class), but they would be real jobs nonetheless. If we added upgrading to passive solar when appropriate, that’s many more jobs for the construction trade.
Second, if we talk just about the generation and transmission of energy, we find that renewables such as solar, wind, and biomass (taken together) create jobs at a much higher rate than non-renewable energy, when manufacturing, installation, operations, and maintenance are accounted for. Want proof? Check out an April 2004 report from the University of California’s Renewable and Appropriate Energy Laboratory.
Third, it’s not for nothing that investors and policy types are salivating over the potential for the fuel-cell industry. PricewaterhouseCoopers has predicted that by 2013, North American fuel-cell companies will provide jobs for up to 108,000 people on the manufacturing side alone.
Finally, if your question is primarily focused on the transportation sector, where the popular press is likely to compare our current gasoline-powered system with a possible hydrogen future, we’re clearly in the realm of speculation. But one thing is for sure and that is that we’ll get two waves of jobs — one in the retrofitting of our current infrastructure and another in operating it. With that in mind, AP writer Mark Johnson has written: “General Motors Company estimates that it would cost $11.7 billion to build 6,500 hydrogen fuel stations in 100 metropolitan areas throughout the United States, and 5,200 more on national highways.”
The bottom line? If one was looking for a public and private investment that would not only result in greater national security and ecological/public health, but also in jobs, the best place to go would be renewable energy. And I haven’t even touched on the thousands of research jobs that our move away from fossil fuels will create.
Where would you suggest I focus to find a career that will leverage my corporate business skills (which do not include any sustainability work), but not require a substantial pay cut? Which types of green careers offer more competitive compensation? What resources are available to aid my transition? Any green headhunters out there? — John Street, San Francisco, Calif.
Boy, I wish I had a dime for every time I’ve been asked a question like this one. Where should I start? I guess the first thing to say is this — there is no such thing as “sustainability” work generically, or “green careers” generically. There are only individual positions at government agencies, corporations, nonprofit groups, and academic institutions — each with their own requirements and qualifications and quirky hiring managers. In short, “green” careers are no different than any other careers.
Are there jobs at places like the Environmental Protection Agency, Trust for Public Land, BP Solar, Tetra-Tech, Sierra Club, and other such places that “will leverage corporate business skills”? Of course there are! Every “green” business, for example, has a need for the same kind of people that all other businesses have — finance, sales, marketing, accounting, IT, operations, PR, and so forth. And, generally speaking, green businesses (like other businesses) are aware that really talented people from another industry can bring these transferable skills to environmental businesses.
Like other industries, however, the environmental sector highly values success and experience in its own niche. If you lack such experience, you’re at something of a competitive disadvantage, and you’ll need to hone the sales pitch that makes people focus on the quality of what you do have, instead of the content knowledge and industry experience that you don’t. That will be true of any kind of career shift, of course.
Now, about money. Since I don’t know your personal situation, I can only speculate. My experience has been that people with strong managerial experience and proven results in one industry can be coached to make a good case for a roughly similar position in environmental work — especially if they are coming from sales, marketing, finance, or IT. It’s not easy, but it can be done.
If, however, you have been in a non-managerial position, or have a less-than-stellar resume, all bets are off. You may be priced out of the market because your current salary is less a marker of your ability than it is the result of “time and grade” salary increases. Once you are out of your current organization, you’ll be competing against hungry, younger people who can and will work for less while producing similar results. That reality is not unique to the environmental workforce.
You asked about headhunters. There are some who specialize in the environmental sector, but usually they are looking for people who already have significant success in our niche. That’s been my experience, anyway.
Finally, if the career search you hope to make is not only a jump from one industry to another, but from one whole professional field to another — then you’ll be fortunate to make the leap without a pay cut. Again, it can be done, but it’s hard. For example, if you’re currently a finance manager at a bank, and now want to be a conservation biologist at The Nature Conservancy (don’t laugh! I get this kind of scenario all the time) — you’re not only going to take a pay cut, you’re going to have to go back to school.
What advice would you give to someone interested in switching careers from an established career to a more enviro-related field? Is it necessary to go back to school to get an enviro-sounding degree even just to get one’s foot in the door? Or is it possible to find an enviro-related job that utilizes one’s more mundane business skills? — Jay, Michigan
See the answer to John, above, but think about these things also. A huge number of jobs at all “environmental” public and private organizations are unrelated to environmental content information. Here at ECO, for example, we have departments/divisions for finance, IT, operations, accounting, human resources, fundraising, communications, sales, marketing, and recruiting. None of these positions require a significant environmental background.
Try this technique: First, identify a person who is doing exactly the work that you would like to do. Be bold! Don’t hold back. If your ideal job is running a scuba-diving-focused eco-tourism business in the Virgin Islands (even though you can’t even swim), that’s fine. Second, visit with the person you have identified and bring along a copy of your resume and a willingness to tell your personal story briefly. Third, ask the person you’ve identified the following question: “What is the gap I would need to close to be able to do the work that you are doing?” Fourth, really listen to the answer. Following those four steps is the very best way to get an answer to your question about whether or not you need to go back to school, and (if so) whether you actually need another degree, or just some new skill capacity.
What are the options for someone without experience looking for a full-time job in the environmental field? What if financial reasons preclude an internship as a viable option? — Name not provided, San Diego, Calif.
Hmm … Do I sense a trend emerging here? Seems like there are lots of people who lack specific environmental education, experience, or skills (and who don’t have a trust fund in the closet), but who really want to do this kind of work.
The single most important thing to do for anyone in this situation is to narrow your focus as much as you possibly can. If you don’t have a lot of room for error and risk, it’s critical that you know exactly what you want to do. The more specific you are, the more effective we career-guidance people can be in helping you craft a detailed strategy that will work. Some types of positions absolutely require experience (no exceptions), while others are less picky. But generic information about which is which will be of no use to you until you have a detailed answer to the question what do you want to do?
As an aside, however, it’s also important to ask yourself how badly you want to do this work. It’s interesting to me that people like singers, dancers, novelists, and athletes rarely ask about how they can get started without experience, or how they can avoid pay cuts. Why? Because singing, dancing, writing, or playing is such a passion that they can’t imagine not doing it.
For those who don’t yet have education or experience in environmental work, it might be useful to check your passion level, as well as your degrees and the work experience line on your resume. Ask: How badly do I want this? Am I willing to try and fail?
Does your organization, or another you know of, help connect retired people with useful work, paid or not? — Richard McNeil, Ithaca, N.Y.
The best resource that I know of is the Environmental Alliance for Senior Involvement. The Corporation for National & Community Service also has great opportunities for retired individuals, sometimes through AmeriCorps. Also look into organizations serving retired people which are not specifically environmental, such as SCORE and RSVP. Finally, most local nonprofit environmental groups would love to hear from you directly, even if you don’t go through one of the organizations above.
