Support Grist
Support nonprofit, independent environmental journalism.
Donate to Grist.
Main Dish

You're a Good Man, Lester Brown

An interview with the founder of Worldwatch and Earth Policy Institute

By David Roberts
06 Mar 2006
Tools: print | email | discuss | write to the editor | subscribe | RSS
There are few titans remaining in the environmental world -- figures that command respect not only inside the movement but in the larger global political milieu as well. Lester Brown is one of them. In 1974, he founded the Worldwatch Institute, one of the first think tanks to focus on the global environmental situation (its agenda-setting yearly reports, State of the World, remain required reading among the green set). In 2001, he left Worldwatch to start the Earth Policy Institute, a small outfit dedicated to envisioning an "eco-economy" and figuring out how to get there.

Lester Brown.
Lester Brown.
In 2003, EPI released Plan B, a book synthesizing research on the earth's multiple converging ecological crises and laying out a step-by-step plan (including a budget -- if you're curious, it's $161 billion) for how to transition to a sustainable path. Reception was enthusiastic; mogul Ted Turner was one of many influential figures to buy dozens of copies to send to friends.

Late last year saw Plan B 2.0, a revised, expanded edition incorporating the many developments -- good and bad -- of the intervening two years. In addition to your local bookstore, the book is available in its entirety as PDF or HTML on EPI's website.

Brown's been globe-trotting since the book's release, promoting the plan. Weeks before I met with him, he spoke to world leaders in Davos, Switzerland, at the World Economic Forum, at the invitation of founder and executive director Klaus Schwab. He and I met in a small cafe in Seattle and, over omelets, discussed biofuels, plug-in hybrids, China, the Bush administration, and sudden, unpredictable social change.



question What was the genesis of Plan B?

answer Our goal was to give a sense of what an environmentally sustainable economy would look like. If you don't know where you want to go, there's a good chance you won't get there. And within the environmental community there was no global vision.

question Do you envision regular two-year updates?

answer Things are happening fast enough now, in terms of new opportunities, new technologies, new success stories, new problems developing, new understandings of climate change, and so forth. So I'm beginning to think this is going to be an every-two-year effort.

Even since this book came out, Goldman Sachs got in the wind-energy business big time. A year ago it bought Horizon, which was a small company building wind farms, and now that company has 5,000 megawatts of generating capacity under construction or in the planning stage. That's equal to 17 typical coal-fired power plants.

question What trend in the world is most alarming?

answer One is climate change and the other is population growth.

On population growth, close to 3 billion people will be added between now and mid-century, the vast majority in countries where water tables are already falling and wells are going dry. That's not a happy situation.

China's growth is illuminating, but it's just that they're growing faster than most of the rest of the world. In that sense they're doing us a favor: they're telescoping history so that we can see what the future looks like.

question You discuss nuclear energy very little in the book. What are your thoughts on it?

answer I've tried to love nuclear, but I haven't been very successful. I don't think it can get beyond the economics. If we insist that utilities bear the full cost of nuclear power -- and that's something we need to do -- they have to set aside money for decommissioning and include that in the rates. That would cost as much or more than construction. They have to deal with the waste issue. And they have to find an insurance company that will insure them.

There are other questions as well. If we decide to go nuclear, do we mean all countries can have nuclear power? Do we have an A-list and a B-list? If so, who makes that list? Who enforces it? Looking at Iran and North Korea right now, I'm not sure we're very good at that.

question Do you consider biofuels a permanent solution or a bridge?

answer I think we're going to need almost all agricultural resources to produce food. We keep forgetting the water issue, which is a sleeper. Half the world's people live in countries where water tables are falling. We may wake up one morning and there won't be enough grain to go around, and not enough water to produce enough grain.

We've always been concerned about the effect of high oil prices on food-production costs, and those are very real, given the oil intensity of world agriculture today. But more important is the effect of high oil prices on the demand for agriculture commodities. Once oil gets up to $60 a barrel, it becomes profitable to convert agricultural commodities into automotive fuels. In effect, the price of oil becomes a support price for agricultural commodities, and therefore food prices. If at any point the food value of the commodity drops below the fuel value, the market will move that commodity into the energy economy.

I don't think we yet quite grasp the effect of $60-a-barrel oil on food prices, because the capacity to distill ethanol and produce biodiesel is not yet large enough to really have an impact. But it's exploding all over the world. Up until a year or two ago, all the government programs here [in the U.S.], in Europe, and in Brazil were driven by government subsidies. In Brazil there are no more subsidies. Ethanol investment is just exploding; it's entirely a market-based operation.

In The Same Vein
Corn at the Right Time
Ethanol is suddenly all the rage in D.C. and Detroit
There's enormous investment in this country in ethanol distilleries and biodiesel refineries. Most people aren't even aware that on Jan. 1 a year ago, we adopted a $1-a-gallon subsidy for biodiesel. But we're setting up competition between supermarkets and service stations for the same commodities.

There is a very attractive alternative automotive-fuel model: gas-electric hybrids with a plug-in and wind energy.

question Is it scaleable quickly enough?

answer Oh yeah. There's a lot of momentum building behind plug-in hybrids. There was a conference organized [a month] ago in Washington on plug-ins. It was organized by the Environmental and Energy Study Institute, the NGO that organizes these things for Congress. [Sen.] Orrin Hatch [R-Utah] left the Alito hearings to come and make a statement.

The interesting thing about the plug-in effort is that the neocons and the environmentalists are both supporting it, and that's a unique combination. There were more neocons speaking at the conference than environmentalists; they want to break dependence on Middle Eastern oil.

question What are your thoughts on this idea of breaking our dependence on Middle East oil?

answer Middle East oil accounts for 15, at most 20 percent [PDF] of our oil. But it's far more important to other parts of the world, and we're all in this together. We have to think about it broadly.

One of the attractive features of moving toward gas-electric hybrids and wind power is that we have the infrastructure already in place. In Plan B, the original, I talk about a hydrogen fuel-cell automotive-energy economy. And that may come, but it's a generation down the road. With the gas-electric hybrids, you need gasoline service stations and you need an electrical grid. We have both.

It's relatively easy to increase wind-generating capacity tenfold. The companies are there, the technologies are there -- it's just a matter of incentives. We might not even need many of those now. We could start doubling each year.

One of the neat things about the gas-electric hybrid plug-in is that the batteries in the vehicle fleet become a storage facility for wind energy. And there's a tank of gasoline as additional backup. So it's really an ideal marriage, a great way of rapidly exploiting wind. And wind is such a huge resource.

question Is there a reason that you seem so much more enthusiastic about wind than solar?

answer It's mostly timing. If you look at the cost curves, wind is roughly a decade ahead of solar. It's just a matter of time.

question One knock you often hear on environmentalists is that they care more about flora and fauna than human beings. But it strikes me that your book is extremely humanist, centered on human welfare.

answer One of the strengths of the book is that it integrates economics and the environment in a socially responsible way. One of the important developments of the past year was Jared Diamond's book Collapse. He legitimized the discussion of early 21st century global civilization, in terms of where we're headed and what the prospects are. You can talk about that now in a way that you couldn't before.

question How do you maintain your optimism?

answer Social change comes rapidly and unexpectedly sometimes.

The Berlin wall coming down was essentially a bloodless political revolution in Eastern Europe. There were no articles in political science journals in the '80s that said, hey, keep an eye on Eastern Europe, big change is coming there. But one morning people woke up and realized the great socialist experiment was over.

What if we'd been sitting at this table 10 years ago and I had said, "I think that the tobacco industry is going to cave"? It was the most powerful lobby in Washington. It controlled committee chairs. But there was a steady flow of articles on smoking and health over a period of a few decades, along with persistent denial. The industry just lost its credibility.

The two things looming large are oil -- security of supply, disruptions around the world, a vague notion that China's out there now competing for it, the price of gasoline, the price of home heating oil -- and the climate issue, the steady drumbeat. Every week or two another major study comes out, nailing down another piece of the climate puzzle. People are beginning to feel uncertain now.

question Is it frustrating to you that people seem to need human enemies, human bogeymen?

answer To a very substantial degree that's a cultivated anxiety. It doesn't exist in Europe, or elsewhere, the way it does here. They're concerned, but they're not preoccupied with it. And if I had to make a list of the top 10 threats to our future in the world, terrorism would be on the list, but it would be in the lower part of the list.

All this leads me to sense that we're moving toward one of those thresholds that are hard to define, at least until you cross them. Among the manifestations are the 100 mayors -- maybe more than that now -- who've signed on to the Kyoto Protocol. This is a grassroots political revolution.

I don't think we realize yet what Katrina is. Most of us had assumed the first climate refugees would be from Tuvalu and the Maldive Islands. But it's the U.S. Gulf Coast. There are a few hundred thousand environmental refugees there -- climate refugees.

question One of the lessons of Katrina is how grossly unprepared we were for something that could easily be worse next time, or happen two places simultaneously next time.

answer The interesting thing about this current administration is they don't seem to be interested in governing, in trying to make things work. FEMA's a classic case, symbolic of this entire government.

question Plan B seems deliberately apolitical.

answer I didn't want it to be a political tract. But I could happily have weighed in on [politics]. When societies are in trouble, sometimes they have a Nero and sometimes they have a Churchill. One of the questions is how this administration will respond to the mounting pressure to do something about these issues.

question However little competence they've shown in other areas, they've certainly demonstrated an amazing talent for avoiding moments of accountability. It's like performance art.

answer It's a public-relations operation with a hidden agenda.

question Does anybody know the concrete political, media, and advocacy steps needed to pull off a fundamental transition to a sustainable economy?

answer In order for these changes to occur, we have to cross a social threshold, and societies don't cross those easily or quickly. Things have to build up enough steam ... and then suddenly it just goes.

And when you cross them, it's not always clear what the response will be; there's enough energy driving things that it can go in many directions. You can't plan that change. You can offer a new model for an automotive fuel economy, and these sorts of things, so when the time comes there'll be some sense of what to do.

question It's at least as possible that Americans will react with retrenchment, defensiveness, trade barriers, and military buildup -- an island mentality.

answer Right. It could happen that way. The reason for doing a book like Plan B is to make it clear that we're all in this together. If our civilization goes down, it's not going to be pieces of it here and there -- the whole thing's going to go down.

question Does it concern you that many of your book's exemplary solutions come out of semi-authoritarian political situations?

answer I was looking for success stories, whether it's breakthroughs in fish farming in China or dairy production in India overtaking the U.S. Wind energy in Western Europe. Solar-cell manufacturing in Japan. Reforestation in South Korea. I didn't look at the form of government to sort out what would work. Carp polyculture's roots go back 2,000 years; it doesn't require a one-party dictatorship.

I remember when the Soviets beat us into space with Sputnik. A lot of Americans were despairing, and said the Soviets have a command economy, they can beat us at anything they want. But what that system lacked was a free flow of information and ideas, and in the end that's what really weakened them. We were on the moon 10 years later, and now it's been almost half a century and the Russians still haven't gotten there.

question Does it worry you that China's ultimate success may be hampered in the same way, by inhibited flow of information and political freedom?

answer The answer is, I don't know. They're having great trouble. We tend to think of China as this monolith: You have the party in Beijing sending down regulations. But at the grassroots there are no enforcement mechanisms. The Chinese EPA is at most 600 people. That's a tiny organization. They can't do anything about this in any meaningful way. There are hundreds of thousands of factories to be monitored. They're a long way from doing that.

question What's the most important thing for humanity to start doing?

answer Get the market to tell the ecological truth. Calculate the cost of burning a gallon of gasoline, for example, and incorporate the indirect cost in the form of a tax. We're all economic decision-makers -- consumers, corporate planners, government policymakers, investment bankers -- and we respond to market signals. But the market's giving us bad information. I mean grossly distorted information. So we're making bad decisions and getting in more and more trouble every day. Whether we can pull out of that or not, I'm not sure.

question What should I do? Talk to congressfolk? Write a letter to the editor? Buy a hybrid?

answer Most of the people in audiences I'm talking with have been asking themselves that question. Recycle paper, buy a Prius, whatever -- lifestyle changes. But we've reached the point where we have to go beyond that. We now have to go for systemic change; otherwise we're not going to make it. That's why tax restructuring is so important. (Incidentally, the Chinese authorities are studying and working on a major tax restructuring just for this purpose.)

That means becoming politically active. Each of us is going to have to define that in our own terms. Maybe it's lobbying city council or representatives in Washington, letting them know what we think, what we want them to do. If enough of us do that, change will begin.

We're seeing signs that Republicans are beginning to cross over on some of these issues, because of the concerns of their constituents. We're getting some major corporate crossovers. GE is now a major player in wind energy. They are cranking up 300 turbines year before last, 600 last year, 1,200 this year -- they're just going. And Goldman Sachs is beginning to invest heavily. When I talk about Goldman Sachs, it changes the way people think about wind energy.

Things may be starting to change.



Tools: print | email | discuss | write to the editor | subscribe | RSS
David Roberts is staff writer for Grist.
< Previous | Next >
Comments: (7 comments)

You are not logged in. Thus, you cannot post a comment. If you have a Gristmill account, log in below. If you don't have a Gristmill account, well, by all means go make one! Meet you back here in five.

Username: Password:

Forgot your password? Enter your username and click:

Biodiesel made from WASTE, not agriculture.

I love Lester Brown and have seen him speak on his book "Eco-Economy".  I was disappointed to see that his response to the question about biofuels as a bridge only looked at it from the agriculture standpoint.  Yes, he's right, using agriculture products to make biofuel is a step in the wrong direction, BUT most of the makers of biofuel use WASTE oil in the process, in which case it makes tons of sense.

I think a more appropriate answer would have been that biofuels make no sense unless made with WASTE products (like waste vegetable oil from restaurants), and when that is the case, biofuels are a fantastic bridge.

I know it can be done; my truck runs on waste vegetable oil.

We need as many solutions as we can find.  

Bout time. Excellent interview.

Nothing more rewarding than seeing eye to eye with...ah, anyone, especially with Mr. Brown.

Like he once said, "I feel good, like I know that I should now..." or, was that the other Mr. Brown?

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

Must Agree That Systemic Change Needed

We've reached the point now where we have to go beyond the obvious.  "We now have to go for systemic change", says Lester Brown.  "Otherwise we're not going to make it."  He's right.

But how much "systemic change" is needed before we can get the world back on the course of sustainability?

We won't get there if everyone who now burns gasoline in their car just switches from burning gasoline to burning biofuels.  We have to do much, much more.  We have to stop burning fuels to propel our travels if we want to have any hope in slowing down global warming.    That means traveling less, because driving less and flying less is the surest way of reducing fuel burning.  

Changing the taxing system is part of the answer. Those who burn the most fuel per person should be taxed heavier than those who burn less fuel on an individual basis.  The extra money that's collected by increasing the fuel taxes could be used to reward other individuals who choose to rely less on automobiles for their means of travel.  

If people were paid to avoid fuel burning - cars, planes, trucks, homes, businesses -- there would be a lot less fuel burning.  We would be in a much better situation than now in reducing the threat of catastrophic global warming.

If catestrophic global warming becomes a reality by the end of the century, and many, many global warming scientists are now saying that it will unless drastic measures are taken, shouldn't we be attempting everything within our power to prevent that scenario from becoming reality, even if it means the American dream of car ownership and a house in the country has to fall by the wayside?  Then we best start to Conserve, NOW!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConserveNOW/

Re: Systemic change. . .

The answer to your question, mtneuman, is absolutely! We should be coming together in our neighborhoods and communities to discuss the future based on the latest climate change information and the fact that the national government is doing nothing, is in fact, spending millions of dollars to research climate change, while denying we need to worry about it enough to act -- because it might hurt the pocketbooks of the rich and powerful. I write an editorial column every other week in my local paper (I'm the paper's "green" columnist and get a fair amount of flack from certain letter writers who don't agree with my perspective). Several of my columns over the years have been on climate change and peak oil. I get the sense that people are waiting for something or someone to come along and force them to change. Beyond the little things like recycling, driving less (living in a rural area with no public transportation at all means we all drive more than we should, even just to get to work), buying local food, etc. it's like we know that we're facing a difficult (to put it mildly) future but we seem incapable of dealing with it so we put up some kind of barrier that allows us to live our daily lives as if everything is going to be just fine. I don't know how to get around this. We seem to be waiting for something. But what? We're so used to being independent, individual, isolated, "every person for him or her self" in this country that we don't seem to know how to come together except in dire emergencies -- and then we back off when things start to return to "normal", missing wonderful opportunities to rebuild our communities in good times rather than waiting for the bad times to force the issue. It's frustrating.

Great interview: hurdles we must face

This was a great interview - direct and deep at the same time. The characterization of the Bush Administration ("It's a public relations operation with a hidden agenda") is one of the best I've seen.

Now to that hidden agenda: beneath the smiling (most of the time)certainty of Reagan and G.W. Bush is that hard right agenda, the core of which is "lower taxes, less government" to condense it the way George Lakoff does.  Yes, we may be seeing Republican and business defections on global warming and energy, and we should praise and encourage both, but what still unites Republicans as diverse as Dick Cheney, Christine Todd Whitman and John McCain is this anti-tax, anti-government attitude.  It is still a huge obtacle to progressive change on inequality, full employment and the shift away from the fossil fuel economy.  Lester says the market is not signaling the proper cost of nuclear and fossil fuels - he is corrent, but the way we think about markets is itself deeply politized - just think about the metaphors of the "Golden Straightjacket" (Thomas Friedman) and the "Washington Consensus."  Even a centrist Democrat, like Clinton's chief economic advisor, Gene Sperling, a very bright man, seems unaware of how deeply politicized the judgements of markets are (re: his recent debate at EPI with Jeff Faux).

Living in the Metro, DC area, its hard not to see the price we are paying for these tax and government attitudes on traffic congestion and sprawl control.  Weep for rural Virginia and those stuck on the beltway, because even progressive groups on sprawl haven't had the visiion or daring to propose new Metro solutions or land protections in the heavy winds of very adverse ideology.  Hence the Beltway solution is privatized toll lanes.  

The paralysis of policy imposed by this anti-tax and government ideology has become a moral straightjacket at a time when we need great flexibility in our tools to confront the problems Lester discusses so clearly.  

William R. Neil Rockville, MD

Biofuel bridge

Yep forest, biofuel from waste is a very efficient, clean bridge.

Here is where Les throws the knockout punch to agri-bizz biofuel though.  What a MIND!

" We keep forgetting the water issue, which is a sleeper. Half the world's people live in countries where water tables are falling. We may wake up one morning and there won't be enough grain to go around, and not enough water to produce enough grain."

But there is another promising,mostly overlooked alternative that could help supplement biofuel from waste.  Algae grown in solar collectors can clean power plant emissions while producing biofuel, it's sort of like a hybrid plugin car conversion for coal fired power plants.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2006/1/10/1646023.html

Another feature of this cogeneration technology is that it can simultaneously recycle or desalinate water.  Helping the water shortage problem.  And that makes this a very practical technology,  producing biofuel, clean water, and transitioning coal power plants to solar and wind power, while maintaining the coal part of the plant as a fairly clean backup (a large percentage of CO2 and other pollutants are  trapped by the algae).

The methane (biogas) from the algae can then be stored to offset fluctuations in wind and solar power inputs.  And if that natural gas is used in a direct fuel cell/microturbine at 75% efficiency to replace the coal fired 30% efficiency?

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryInformation/IndustryInformationExternal/IndustryI nformationDisplayArticle/0,1588,287,00.html

That way coal energy is eventually rendered obsolete.

But is there time for all that?  I think the urgency of global climate change demands prorities.  As Les says, there are already 100s of thousands of eco disaster refugees from Katrina.

His focus on plugin hybrids is excellent.  They run on (green, if produced by renewable power) electricity for 50 miles, then go to  fuel, which can be biofuel.

First get the plugin hybrids going, then go for the buildout of wind power on a massive scale.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2006/2/9/1752958.html

To do that repeal all corporate welfare subsidies and tax breaks for fossil and nuclear power (like Les says, the liability pass subsidy from congress for nukes, let 'em buy their own insurance), then take half the money saved and pay down the debt and give the other half as partial subsidies (say $2000 per home sized installation) to homeowners and small businesses, schools, local governments...to install solar and wind, and go to plugin hybrids.

Les says we ought to incorporate the real cost of burning fuel into that fuel (maybe with higher fuel taxes, he doesn't specify?), an excellent idea!

I contend the way to do that is NOT higher fuel taxes (political suicide), but instead ripping the corporate welfare (15 billion for oil companies alone, which made record $134 billion in profiteering on the war through price fixing)from fossil and nuclear corporations.

Corporations that bribe government officials (especially war profiteers like big oil)to obtain corporate welfare are an easy political target, let's zero in on them!

Then the corpoRATs will pass the cost onto consumers raising prices to reflect the complete, intrinsic costs of fossil and nuclear fuelishness (hehey).  

THEY will get the political blane, as they should.  Otherwise the environmental movement will be "swiftboated" for trying to raise gas taxes.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

Yes!

"One of the neat things about the gas-electric hybrid plug-in is that the batteries in the vehicle fleet become a storage facility for wind energy."

Great minds think alike Les!  Hehey.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/19/1455214.html

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

You are not logged in. Thus, you cannot post a comment. If you have a Gristmill account, log in below. If you don't have a Gristmill account, well, by all means go make one! Meet you back here in five.

Username: Password:

Forgot your password? Enter your username and click:

The comments of Grist users reflect the opinions of those individuals only, and do not necessarily reflect the viewpoints of Grist, its staff, its board members, their psychotherapists, or their aestheticians. Got it?


Also in Grist

The Week's Most Popular



From the Archives
Laid to Waste, by Chris Jordan. Portraits of loss in the wake of Katrina.
A House Divided, by Keri Rosebraugh. An interactive illustration of how the other half lives.
Rumblings in the Bronx, by Mary Wiltenburg. A virtual walking tour of the South Bronx with Omar Freilla of Green Worker Cooperatives.

ADVERTISING POLICY


About Grist | Support Grist | Jobs Board | Archives | Grist by Email | RSS | Podcasts
Gristmill Blog | In the News | Ask Umbra® | Muckraker | Victual Reality | 'Tis the Season | The Grist List | The Bottom Line



Grist: Environmental News and Commentary
a beacon in the smog (tm) ©2007. Grist Magazine, Inc. All rights reserved. Gloom and doom with a sense of humor®.
Webmaster | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Trademarks