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I Saw the Sign

How to tell future generations about nuclear waste

By John Stang
08 Aug 2006
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Think of a mummy movie -- any mummy movie.

Treasure hunters enter a pyramid. The explorers either ignore or can't read the hieroglyphics warning of the curse that awaits those who open the 3,000-year-old sarcophagus before them. The mummy awakens and kills most of the cast.

Rough translation: Seriously dude, do not open this door.
Rough translation: Seriously dude, do not open this door.
Photo: iStockphoto
If only those ancient Egyptians had done a better job warning future treasure-hunters not to mess with their sarcophagi.

Today, the U.S. government faces a similar task: figuring out how to warn descendants hundreds to thousands of years in the future about buried nuclear waste -- material that can remain deadly for millennia. As cleanups proceed at shuttered sites and talk brews about building new plants, the question is more pressing than ever.

How do you tell someone centuries from now not to dig up radioactive waste from a burial site that may be long-forgotten, or from a place that's attractive to the curious? A thousand years from now, will the United States still exist? Will an earthquake or volcano have wrecked the burial site? Will the people understand English? Who will show up at an ancient, possibly forgotten burial mound in the year 3000 A.D. -- Mad Max, or the Jetsons, or someone we can't even imagine?

While the Department of Energy has held preliminary discussions about some scattered nuclear waste and uranium tailing sites, there has been no coordination between the sites so far. "We're very concerned about it," says Ray Plieness, acting director for land and site management for DOE's fledgling Office of Legacy Management, established in late 2003 to clean up the nation's messes. "We're in the infancy stages in discussing it."

Dear Future People: Oops


Richland, Wash., home of the Hanford nuclear site, is often cited as the most radioactively and chemically contaminated spot in the Western Hemisphere. This is where the world's first industrial-sized nuclear reactor was built, where the plutonium for the first atomic bombs originated. Today, Hanford has hundreds of contaminated buildings, including nine long-shutdown reactors and five closed chemical-processing plants, each slightly bigger than an average World War II battleship.

Hanford is one of a few dozen former nuclear production sites scattered across the nation, relics of the Cold War that include sprawling facilities at Idaho Falls, Idaho, and Savannah River, S.C. Across the country, the government is undertaking more than 100 cleanup projects at such sites. All the projects have a common thread: they'll end up burying wastes with half-lives of up to thousands of years.

Inside the storage facility at Carlsbad, N.M.
Photo: Sandia National Laboratories
The best-known burial sites are a half-mile deep artificial cavern near Carlsbad, N.M., and the controversial proposed site at Yucca Mountain, Nev. More waste will be or already is buried at Hanford, Savannah River, Idaho Falls, and elsewhere.

Much of the waste is supposed to be kept isolated for 10,000 years -- more than twice the age of the beat-up and cryptic pyramids and Stonehenge. Right now, these DOE sites are usually protected with "keep out" signs, chain-link fences, and guards. However, there's no guarantee that any of those measures will be feasible more than a few decades from now.

The problem of how to produce more permanent warnings is coming up quickly for Hanford, where a battleship-sized plutonium extraction factory -- a place dubbed "U Plant" -- is supposed to be buried under a huge on-site mound by 2012. That and similar sites may prove tempting places to dig centuries from now. "You've got to think of reverse psychology," says Kevin Leary, DOE's technical leader for the U Plant project. "What if you tweaked someone's curiosity [to dig instead of avoid digging]?"

At Hanford, a rough rule of thumb for planners is to look ahead 1,000 years. That's like a Viking trying to conceive of an astronaut, then trying to pass a note to him.

Experts inside and outside of DOE have pondered this communication conundrum. The agency has assembled panels of scientists, historians, artists, and others to tackle from all angles the question of how a 21st century sign should look to a 31st century person. From symbols to colors to materials to size, everything's up for grabs -- and nothing's been decided. The leading plans for the major sites in New Mexico and Nevada involve enormous berms, monuments, time capsules, and more. Meanwhile, detractors say that will only draw unnecessary attention, and suggest that the best notification is no notification at all.

Amidst the uncertainty, Jim Wise, an associate professor of psychology and adjunct professor of environmental science at Washington State University, led a course last year on developing nuclear warning systems. Wise says the ultimate solution doesn't have to be a shot in the dark: "There is enough evidence to make some responsible decisions."

Color Me Radioactive


Pointing out that many of the potential warning designs suggested to date stress creativity and beauty rather than rigorously analyzing the psychology of what someone in 3000 A.D. might understand, Wise paints a picture of the challenges ahead.

Look at manuscripts from England that survived from 1000 A.D., Wise says. First of all, very few of those documents made the 1,000-year journey entirely intact. And the written English is indecipherable to most people today. Although we understand some aspects of what life was like then, most of that era is a mystery to us. Given our track record of understanding 1000 A.D.'s communications, Wise speculates that a nuclear-waste burial site would need at least seven different types of warnings in order for at least one to survive 1,000 years and be interpreted correctly.

Now take into consideration that language, science, and technology have evolved much faster in the past 200 years than in the previous 800. And future changes will likely accelerate over the next millennium. After all, videotapes were state of the art in the 1980s, and are antiquated today. Computers become obsolete in less than five years -- so what are the chances of a warning sign lasting 1,000 years at a nuclear burial site? The bottom line is, no one knows what to expect.

In 2005, along with undergraduate student Stuart Davis, Wise met with DOE officials at Hanford to discuss the findings of his class. Many of the group's ideas, says Plieness, have come up in discussions at other DOE sites as well.

As far as materials go, Wise and Leary think ceramics -- perhaps buried at varying depths above the waste -- might do the job. Others suggest concrete or stone. Wise fears that steel and most metals would likely corrode or be salvaged for some other purpose during the next several hundred years. One anti-theft device might be to use the burial mound itself as a warning, Wise says, noting that furrows and ridges could be incorporated in the design so the wind blowing across would make a sinister sound -- or that long-lived, prickly vegetation could be planted on or around the sites.

Biohazard
Whatever the size of the warning, Wise suggests following nature's lead by using bright colors, long an indicator from one creature to another to back off. These include a bee's black and yellow stripes, a coral snake's red and yellow stripes, a monarch butterfly's wings -- even the exaggerated contrast between the pupils and whites of human eyes, which allow others to read fear.

Wise contends that any warnings should be based on universal symbols of danger: things like sharp teeth, claws, lightning bolts, even today's biohazard symbol. "As forms get sharper and get more edges, people dislike them, even in abstract images," he says.

Circles and other symmetrical images, on the other hand, are comfortable at a gut level. And that immediately raises red flags. Today's universal sign for prohibited items -- a red circle with a diagonal slash -- could easily be knocked askew over the next few hundred years, ending up looking more like a pictograph of a hamburger, Davis says. And the well-known skull-and-crossbones symbol, also symmetrical, won't necessarily retain its meaning. "Someone might find a copy of Pirates of the Caribbean, and say there's buried treasure there [where a skull-and-crossbones marker is found]," Davis adds.

Radioactive
Photo: iStockphoto
And what about today's radiation warning sign? "It's unfortunate that the radiation symbol looks the way it does, because it doesn't look very threatening," Wise says. "Someone might look at it and ask: 'Why did someone bury all these propellers?'"

Go Tell It On the Mountain


Wise's group suggested sending a warning to future generations through "memory stewardship" -- essentially ingraining the dangers of radiation into folklore that's passed from generation to generation. The need for awareness is underscored by DOE's Plieness, who says it could also be achieved by teaching about the waste sites in local schools.

Plieness also says it will be necessary to plan for technology evolving into unforeseen forms, by setting up administrative rules that would require pertinent nuclear-waste information to be added to and stored in whatever state-of-the-art information system exists at that time. Sounds straightforward, but there are almost too many unknowns to analyze.

For his part, Wise hopes that a survey similar to one Davis conducted -- which asked 75 southeastern Washington residents what symbols, shapes, and colors inspired the most fear, with lightning, triangles, and red and black the top vote-getters -- will be conducted across other nations and cultures. This, he says, could help gauge what will truly speak to every culture's gut, now and down the unknown road.

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John Stang is a reporter for the Daily Inter Lake in Kalispell, Montana. He has worked in newspapers for 23 years, including 13 years at the Tri-City Herald in southeastern Washington, where he covered the Hanford nuclear reservation for 11 years.
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More Deadly than Snakes on a Plane

While nuclear waste is deadly, the siren song of nuclear generated carbon cuts is deceptive and dangerous.  Mining, processing and storing the waste are fossil fuel intensive.  They could eventually cancel out many of the greenhouse gas reductions generated by nukes.

Don't let polluters get the last word. Sign up for SNAP at www.newenergychoices.org!
Are there any alternatives?

All of the negative points against nukes are well-taken, but I think it is essential that we total up our electrical needs against the possible production of sustainable sources of supply.

I have never seen a projection that we'll be able to supply enough electricity to support the current lifestyle of the first world, let alone the coming usage in China and India, without massive coal and nuclear build-up.

Even allowing for much greater conservation, and a very optimistic schedule for new technology, is there any way we can avoid coal and nukes for the next century? If not, then it's simply unrealistic to fight nukes, we should be regulating them carefully. If so, and there is a viable way to go straight to sustainable power, let's get the word out quickly.

www.jawfish.net

NuClearly No...

My opinion of Nuclear is no.  To explain it further, let me say, just no.  I can think of no better way to define my feelings toward this than, no.  Okay, so it's no.  Simply, no.  No...

JD & Kelley Howell of Eugene, OR. visit us: Cut20.blogspot.com
Competing with Corruption

I can prove that existing scalable solar technology can power most of the world at a cost less than the cost of nuclear power and coal power.


Jack be NIMBY

Cohen's assertion that siting nuclear facilities makes nuclear energy a non-starter in the United States is right on.  

As evidence, in 2004 I worked with WashPIRG on a campaign to prevent the Department of Energy (DOE) from dumping additional wastes at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation in Washington State until cleaning up the existing waste, which is moving towards the Columbia River via groundwater.  We did this by placing an initiative on the November ballot and raising awareness of it across the state.  Essentially, the initiative stated that if passed, the DOE would be forced to clean up the mess before making it worse.  

The initiative passed by the LARGEST MARGIN OF ANY IN STATE HISTORY -- nearly 70% voted for it.

To me, this clearly reinforces the American public's position on nuclear waste generation and storage of its unavoidable radioactive wastes: Not In My Back Yard - better known as NIMBY.  

And as far as those who advocate nuclear energy, I wonder how many would continue to do so if the backyard chosen for a new plant was their own.

Alternatives are many...

I'd say solar is a very viable alternative to nuclear.  I just read Solar Revolution by Travis Bradford of the Prometheus Institute.  If you want the clearest analysis of solar prospects that I've seen, this is it.

Can I see some facts?

I consider myself to be an energy activist.  To define that I would say that I am a chemical engineering student who hopes to pursue ways in the future to reduce and eliminate our need for any non-renewable fuel or energy source.  I have worked on research for fuel cells and many others.  Recently I have had the opportunity to intern in the nuclear field.

From this standpoint I feel that I have an informed basis from which to argue derived from my interning experience.

The issue of NIMBY (Not In My BackYard) is quite ridiculous.  Nuclear plants and fuel production facilities must meet strict coding requirements and have extensive buffer zones in order to even think about breaking ground.  The Yucca Mt. project is even more remote.  The mountain is in the middle of the desert.  If you go out to the facility you will see that even standing from the highest reachable point on the mountain, you will see nothing even remotely resembling civilization.  The spent fuel is to be stored deep underground, and the nearest water aquifer has been evaluated by geoligists to be completely isolated, and not drawn on from any domestic water source or otherwise.  This plan has been approved by congress.  

The only reason that there are spent fuel rods all over the US just sitting at nuclear plants is because Harry Reid will not allow the rods to go to Yucca Mt. regardless of the previous act passed.  

Rolling Harry's filibuster on the Hill is quite a difficult proposition, but if the other senators would get on board it could happen and that spent fuel can finally go where it was meant to.  Otherwise where have all of our tax dollars gone all these years (23 to be exact).  They have gone into military spending, government subsidies to less appealing energy, and a multitude of other wasteful government expenditures.

Before going on an emotional and unbased rant on any topic of interest it is best to look the facts first, then bring your hopefully somewhat more intelligent argument to the table.

W. Pierce Student and Energy Conscious Dude

Keep the nukes we have but build no more

We need to run the nukes we have for as long and safely as we can. The carbon investment is made and we ought to amortize it as long as we can.
  New nukes are another matter. My bet is an honest carbon impact analysis would conclude a new will have to run as long as our old nukes have already just to offset the CO2 emissions needed to build, fuel and maintain the plant.
  Not that we ought to be guessing.

The Facts

The American public's NIMBY feelings are facts.  This was my point.  I'm not arguing that NIMBY is justified, although I think it is.  Whether we agree or disagree with the safety of nuclear storage sites such as Hanford or Yucca Mountain, we must accept that not every American shares our view that these sites are safe.  This is the reality that must be considered when choosing which energy alternatives to pursue from a national energy policy standpoint.  Cohen's point was exactly this: don't want time and energy pursuing an option that the public will not support.

Yo

"Simply, no.  No..."

That says it all so well.  Excellent.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

IYour wrong bigtime. We need carbon free erg's

According to a 2005 IAEA report, Chernobyl caused 56 direct deaths; 47 accident workers and 9 children who died of thyroid cancer. Additionally it was estimated that as many as 4,000 people may ultimately die from long term accident-related illnesses. Greenpeace, amongst others, dispute that study's conclusions and presume the toll was higher.

Whatever the true toll of the Chernobyl accident, even conceding a worst case scenario, what most characterises the contribution of civilian nuclear power to world energy production is its relative safety compared to all other means of energy production.

In terms of direct deaths per terawatt produced since 1972, Coal killed 342, Hydro 883 and natural gas 85, but only 8 fatalities were recorded per terawatt of nuclear power.(1) In fact, this statistic vastly underestimates the relative hazards of fossil fuels as the indirect deaths from pollution caused by Coal powered stations worldwide is estimated at over 5 million per year.

A 1000 MW(e) coal plant, depending on sulphur content, sends annually millions of tons of Carbon dioxide, 44 000 tonnes of sulphur oxides and 22 000 tonnes of nitrous oxides into the atmosphere causing acid rain and poor human health. Additionally, there are 320 000 tonnes of ash containing 400 tonnes of heavy metals for which abatement procedures themselves produce as much as 500 000 additional tonnes of solid waste that must be disposed of.

If the potential future climate change impact of the billions of tons of carbon emitted yearly from conventional power plants is taken into consideration, the death toll of say, heat waves in Europe or drought in Africa may, sooner or later, need to be added to the already massive indirect costs of conventional power.
Vattenfall, the Swedish energy company produces electricity from Nuclear, Hydro, Coal, Gas, Solar Cell, Peat and Wind energy and has produced accredited Environment Product Declarations for all these processes.

Vattenfall finds that averaged over the entire lifecycle of their Nuclear Plant including Uranium mining, milling, enrichment, plant construction, operating, decommissioning and waste disposal, the total amount CO2 emitted per KW-Hr of electricity produced is 3.3 grams per KW-Hr of produced power.

Vattenfall measures its CO2 output from Natural Gas to be 400 grams per KW-Hr and from coal to be 700 grams per KW-Hr.

Thus nuclear power generated by Vattenfall emits less than one hundredth the CO2 of Fossil-Fuel based generation. In fact Vattenfall finds its Nuclear Plants to emit less CO2 over the lifecycle than even green energy production mechanisms such as Hydro, Wind, Solar and Biomass.

Of course, all these methods emit much less carbon than fossil fuel electricity and they all have a respected place in our energy future. Until cheap and ultra efficient large energy storage systems become available only nuclear power can replace large coal burning plants.

Once PBMR's are in full production they may be able to generate energy at about 1.7 US cents per kWh, well below the costs of new coal, gas or wind plants, and far below the cost of other nuclear power.

In conclusion, I'll quote from James Lovelock, who's research ultimately saved the planet when he discovered CFCs in the atmosphere in 1973.

"Opposition to nuclear energy is based on irrational fear fed by Hollywood-style fiction, the Green lobbies and the media. These fears are unjustified, and nuclear energy from its start in 1952 has proved to be the safest of all energy sources. We must stop fretting over the minute statistical risks of cancer from chemicals or radiation... If we fail to concentrate our minds on the real danger, which is global warming, we may die even sooner, as did more than 20,000 unfortunates from overheating in Europe last summer."

Wake up

And smell the radioactive metal vapor spacer.  That's the last thing the victims inside the Chernobyl reactor smelled.

Nuclear power is simply too expensive.

Wind, wave, solar power, electric cars, and geothermal heat pumps will do the job at a price we can afford and reverse global climate change.  

And at the same time revive the DOA US manufacturing sector and with it the tax base.  Do you want every US child born to inherit the 500k debt that these neoconmen have saddled them with to pay for their oily military industrial nightmare?  I don't.

It is physically impossible to build enough nukes to put a dent in global climate change in time to save spaceship earth.  No one wants them anywhere near their homes, the lawsuits alone would bankrupt the effort.

And the disastrous performance of the nuclear contractor/government alliance, would need to be turned around first.  With industry self (no) regulation that can never happen.

The largest provider of corporate jet joy rides for congress?  The nuclear industry lobbyists.

Lovelock didn't save the planet yet and he won't do it with this nuclear powered self deception.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

Nuclear is clean

It is welcome in my backyard. I am in the majority on this; claims to the contrary are oil-funded. (It should be understood that fossil money corrupts most largely not as company dividencs but as tax receipts; these are the majority of fossil fuel profits.)

Nuclear is climate-friendly; the people who say "what about this carbon-emitting step, what about that one" are innumerate, but not so innumerate that they don't know their questions are dishonest.

Because of government's fossil fuel interest, those who question the future of nuclear waste and then cash government cheques are lobbying for carbon monoxide deaths. They know no analogous harm has ever come from nuclear waste, even though all of it is today only a few decades old, and vastly hotter than it will be in a century or so.

How much income would you stand to lose if you started repeating my nuclear-is-clean message, merely because you know it to be true? That's your price. Rather than continue to take that money, you would be better off eating a fuel rod.

--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen fan
Boron: internal combustion, nuclear cachet:
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html

Really?

It is welcome in my backyard. I am in the majority on this; claims to the contrary are oil-funded.

I find it hard to believe that a majority of people actually want a nuclear reactor in their backyard.  Perhaps my circle of friends are simply NIMBY-bastards, but I don't know a single person who wants a reactor close by.  In fact there is an active grassroots campaign to stop renewal of Indian Point's license (a reactor on the Hudson about 1 hour north of NYC).

Wanna talk facts about safety?

Do we consider driving cars a necessity in modern times?  The answer is emphatically yes!

How many people died in America alone last year from motor vehicles?  47,200!!!  That cost Americans $245.2 billion dollars in just 2005 alone!!!  Check my facts: http://www.atsip.org/index.php/news/.

Now...Is powering our homes, cars (in the future), factories, and nearly everything imaginable a necessity?  We throw that away for a ONE isolated incident?

How many people died from a single, completely avoidable accident in unregulated EASTERN EUROPE?  112?  Are you kidding me?  That number isn't even a percentage of who we kill on our roadways in a single year....

Face the facts!  Nuclear is SAFE!  Nuclear is CLEAN!  I can get you facts on these as well.  Talk to an informed source before going to a fire-breathing, rumor spitting anti-nuclear activist.

Will people ever wake up from their fear driven false reality?

W. Pierce Student and Energy Conscious Dude

Whoops

Investors lost $11 Billion in Washington State's 5 nuclear power plants that were never finished due to cost.  That had nothing to do with safety.  Burned investors will not return.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_33/b39970...


Where did you get that figure?

Sunflower, where did you get the $11 billion dollar loss of investment figure.  Your link deals nothing with that.  I would simply like to verify your source.

W. Pierce Student and Energy Conscious Dude
Nuclear can't prevent highway deaths

It's true that road deaths and injuries are to some extent a measure of what people find acceptable, risk-wise, but maybe 0.1 of a statistical person per year, on top of those 47,200 real people, is just the straw that breaks the camel's back. Maybe people just can't deal with the additional risk, however theoretical, that nuclear energy may pose.

So what, in my opinion, is really illuminating is to compare hypothetical nuclear deaths to routine real deaths that, without nuclear energy,  obviously would occur that much more often: coal mine disasters, pipeline explosions, household gassings by furnaces where a nuclear-powered heat pump could have served.

This makes it easy for common sense to get a grip, and see that, while it would be very odd if real people were unaware that nuclear is a lifesaver, it's understandable that fossil fuel interests try to suggest this; they're trying to blame the victim.

So by asking, "Will people ever wake up from their fear driven false reality?", you're missing the point. It's not people who fear nuclear energy, it's fossil fuel interests. Unfortunately, because of fossil fuel taxation, that includes anyone whose financial mainstay is a government cheque.

--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen fan
Boron: maybe nuclear will save some drivers after all

Typo ...

... In fact there is an active grassroots campaign to stop renewal of Indian Point's license (a reactor on the Hudson about 1 hour north of NYC)...

You misspelled "gross-rats".

--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen fan
Boron: internal combustion without exhaust gas:
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html

WPPSS

I got that loss figure from a Tacoma City Light official some time ago.  It includes losses from bonds ($2.25 B) and from utilities.

In January 1982, the WPPSS board stopped construction on Plants 4 and 5 when total cost for all the plants was projected to exceed $24 billion.

http://historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=5482

Northwest ratepayers were stuck with more than $7 billion in WPPSS debts.

http://www.bluefish.org/wilwppss.htm


WSSPP Default

Sunflower let me help you on the default matter.  Here is a good site for the infamous WSSPP default http://historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=5482

The default, meaning bonds that were unable to secure sufficient revenue to make its required posting to pay its coupons, was on the order of 2.4 billion.

These power plants were being planned when electricity growth was assummed to 7% per year or more.  What happen between 1975 and 1982 is that this growth rate dropped to 2%.  Suddenly there was no need for all these power plants.

Other projects also failed at the same time, but others continued on to opertion.  Some were converted to natural gas or lead to the bankruptcy of the purchasing utility.

It's time for another emphatic

NO! I'm sorry but I just can't go there. Maybe it's a kneejerk reaction. I've spent too many years fighting nukes of all sorts -- bombs, reactors, food irradiation. And I respect James Lovelock on so many things but even he can't convince me -- and if anyone could it would be him because he's right about so many things, including climate change. But my heart and my spirit say NO.

Sorry Sunflower

Went to help find a reference for your position as I knew you were correct as I was in the business back then.  However, busy day and I was not able to complete my post until you already filled using the same reference.

In any case let's not get in a rush to build nuclear today when solar and wind are ready today and can only get better over time.

More reasons why nuclear won't work

As Dave pointed to earlier, this interview with Jeremy Rifkin is excellent and quite illuminating, especially on the question of nuclear power. He makes one of the most damning cases against nuclear power that I've come across.

Rifkin is very clear that nuclear power won't serve us well even as a bridge out of fossil fuels:


Why not use nuclear power as a bridge out of fossil fuels, as some environmentalists are now arguing?

It makes no sense. The key is we've got 103 nuclear plants out there. They're amortizing out in the next 20 years. If you just wanted to rebuild them -- 20 percent of our energy out there is nuclear. If you wanted to double it to 40 percent, you would still not make much of a dent in terms of fossil fuel substitution. You'd have to really triple it. You're talking about $600 billion to a trillion right at the get-go over 30 years.


Coming up with that kind of cash is a big problem not to mention what to do with all the nuclear waste:

America's broke. We've got massive consumer debt. Massive government debt. Massive trade deficits. Where would we come up with that kind of money? Secondly, the cost of a nuclear power plant at $2 billion is 50 percent more than a coal-fired power plant, and it's much more expensive than a natural-gas-fired power plant, and so if you were going to go to nuclear, you'd have to have a discussion with the public -- eventually we will have this discussion, because Blair, Bush and Putin all want nuclear, but they've not had this discussion. The discussion is: Who's going to pay for it? The taxpayer will have to pay for it with deep, deep subsidies, or the consumer, or both, and I don't think the public's going to be willing to take that price. And the other reasons are I think its equally a no-go: We don't know how to get rid of the waste. No governor wants it transported across their state.

Oh, and then there's the whole problem of running out of uranium:

The uranium deficit is pretty critical. The studies by the Atomic Energy Commission and others, suggest that at a modern scenario we run out in 2025, and we have a deficit. At a brisk scenario, which doesn't even mean doubling nuclear power, we run out within 12 to 15 years. Uranium is finite, just like fossil fuel.

Rifin brings home his case with a simple equation:  more nuclear plants = more targets for terrorist attacks

And then, of course, the big reason I would suggest is that it's a soft target: We don't want Iran to have nuclear power, but we're willing now to export nuclear power and build hundreds and thousands of nuclear power plants with uranium and transit all over the world? It's insane. In an era of Islamic extremist terrorism, this is pathology to do this.

The Australian government, last year, you may remember, just in the nick of time, arrested 18 Islamic terrorists who were planning to destroy the only nuclear power plant in Sydney. And the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission did a study just before 9/11. It hasn't changed much, I don't think. In a sample study of simulated attacks, over half the nuclear power plants in the sample flunked. ... This is more esoteric, but I think your readers will appreciate this: These technologies -- uranium-based nuclear, coal, gas, fossil fuels -- they're old, centralized, elite 20th-century technology. They do not fit the kind of open source, flat distributive world that a younger generation is moving into in the 21st century.


Word.  Give it up for Jeremy, everybody.


Yes!

Tell 'em Emily!

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
first, decommission the auto-industrial complex

It boggles the mind that an environmentalist can compare the risks of cars and nuclear power, and conclude that cars are less risky.

Steven Cohen writes that "When we drive on an interstate highway, we face the risk of a crash. We accept the risk because it is relatively low, and because the effect of the risk is localized. A mistake in a nuclear power plant, however, can cause long-standing, widespread damage to people and ecosystems."

Well, actually, in 60 years of the civilian nuclear industry, there has been one (1) accident that caused widespread damage. According to an intensive study by the World Health Organization, the Chernobyl accident might eventually result in as many as 4,000 premature deaths.

Four thousand deaths in 60 years -- is that a lot? Well, not compared to the everyday carnage on the world's roads - about 4,000 people die in traffic accidents, on average, every 30 hours, for a total of 1.2 million people around the world every year.

But if we really want to estimate the danger posed by cars and trucks, we need to add in the tens of thousands of premature deaths due to smog each year, in North America alone. About half of that smog comes from the smokestacks on our cars and trucks, while most of the rest comes from the smokestacks on non-nuclear power plants. Oh, and there's the inconvenient matter of global warming, which will have widespread and quite likely catastrophic impacts for many generations; in the US, 70 per cent of the greenhouse gas emissions from fossil fuels are due to transportation. Not to mention the fact that the oil consumed in the manufacture of a car generally equals the oil burned during the lifetime of the car. Not to mention that to make space for all these cars to drive and park, we've had to turn our cities and suburbs into concrete wastelands, which soak up heat while quickly flushing cooling rains down the sewers.

The dangers posed by the auto-industrial complex are orders of magnitude greater than the dangers posed by nuclear power. The overwhelming environmental priority should be to decommission the auto-industrial complex. Once we've done that, if we've survived global warming, and if we've built a new car-free way of life, and if we've got enough renewable sources for our new, energy-reduced civilization, then we might want to look at phasing out nuclear power.

northbranch

nuclear apples and oranges

I really appreciate the facts that people have brought to this discussion, particularly the breakdown per terawatt hour provided by spacerkev.

I also think it's important to point out, since people keep citing the incident at Chernobyl, that the reactor at Chernobyl is VASTLY DIFFERENT from those in the US.  Thanks to the cold war, the US didn't share ideas about moderating materials for nuclear reactors.  The Soviets used graphite, which is flammable & almost certainly contributed to that meltdown.  US reactors use deuterium or "heavy water" as a moderator.  Heavy water is not flammable, therefore a similar incident (reactor catching on fire) could not actually occur in the states.

Could there still be incidents? Sure, but more like 3-mile island (nobody died).  This also means the figures cited above are more likely overestimates of the dangers of nuclear power plants, and the emotional arguments made on the basis of Chernobyl--already a cheap rhetorical ploy--are irrelevant to the issue.

Do I think any of this will overwhelm popular opinion and bring nuclear power (back?) into favor in the US? No. Does this affect the argument that these plants are military targets? No, but power plants and refineries are always major targets in war.  I don't want a coal plant in my back yard either.

Trotting out the same ol' BS

It really saddens me to see an article like this in the Grist.  That strawman is so cliched I can't believe people still fall for it.  Almost nobody who is advocating nuclear power is talking about the old fuel rod based technology, read up on pebble beds and breeder reactors, then make up your mind.

To jerk your knees at some twit pulling out Chernobyl and Three Mile Island and (hey it works on the conservatives too) the terrorist card is sad.  Try to be at least slightly informed.  I am not advocating yes or no to nuclear, but that people discuss the actual issue and not the standard fear/distraction that gets regurgitated again and again.  Seriously, how many times has virtually this exact same article been published, with the exact same bullet points, getting the exact same reactions.

Heavy water doesn't burn ...

But it is deuterium oxide, not deuterium. Deuterium, aka heavy hydrogen, releases lots of heat in the process of becoming deuterium oxide, which is to say, it burns. And US reactors contain ordinary water, which doesn't burn. I guess some readers now are approaching a science overload condition, and next time they see a man sitting on the edge of a fountain and smoking a cigarette, they'll run.

How Dr. Teller taught the US the lessons of Chernobyl in 1950. Graphite is fine, and so is water ...

--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen fan
Boron: internal combustion, nuclear cachet

The Irony of the Anti Nuke Argument

I always find it Ironic that people argue against nuclear power because of what "might" happen here in the U.S. but never actually has vs. what is continuing to occur as a reslut of fossil fuel plant  electricity generation.  i.e., fossil fuel emissions vs. nuclear "maybes".  Fact: 6000 tons per year fossil fuel plant emissions, CO2, CO, SO2, NO2, etc.  and a not so indirect correlation to Luekemia, cancer, etc., etc.  Yet this article argues about what ifs in 10,000 years?  Incredible logic.  What if they leak, what if some moron breaks one open and it leaks in 10,000 years?  What if they get attacked by terrorists (virtually impossible to sabotage a nuke plant by the way with the containment system in place along with security and electronically controlled doors.  if you can figure that one out let me know, Ill send you money)  People are dying everyday from cancer and fossil fuel emissions, our atmosphere is almost decimated, our health as a people greatly affected and you guys are worried about "what-ifs"?  This kind of logic I find just plain stupid.  We need energy to sustain our way of life.  Nuclear is clean, safe and economical if you 1) dont protest against it for 10 years thereby driving up construction costs, 2) pass the bill to allow for the safe storage of nuclear waste at Yucca Mt. 3) Understand theat nuke plants are the safest place on earth to be in the case of an enviromental, biological, radiological or terroist attack (do the research on containment buildings and security in nuke plants if you dont believe me) 4) Understand that a nuclear plant IS NOT a nuclear bomb.  It cannot blow up.  5) Understand that Chernoybl happened because the Russians dont have 1/10th the nuclear program that we have in the states in safety or engineering, 6) Understand that TMI melted down and how many people were killed?  Answer 0.  Not one, nada, zilch.  Thats because of the perviously mentioned safeguards.  The number one thing that makes nuclear power and its waste and construction difficult are the people and the protesters themselves.  They drive up the costs thru protests, lobbying against waste transport (NIMBY), all out out of ignorant, unfounded, undocumented fear.  If you do the research and learn more about it you will see how desireable it really is.  Why do you think the govt hasnt given up on it?  Its because they know these facts and John Q. Public does not.  Mr. Public doesnt use facts like many of these stupid comments like "No..Just No".  They use emotion.  What kind of scientific reasoning is that?  It isnt scientific at all, it purely emotional and purely narrow-minded and short-sighted.

The Irony of the Pro-Nuke Argument

Why would anybody personally promote nuclear power plants?  It could be education, training, potential or existing jobs, money.  My track on the failure of the nuclear power industry is that the blame is externalized.   It's the fault of others; the environmentalists, the promoters of renewable energy, antagonists, and mindless public fear.

I respectfully disagree.  The nuclear industry failed for internal reasons.  It is not competitive, not profitable, not support by sources of capital.

Lapish don't capish

Why do you think the govt hasnt given up on it?  Its because they know these facts and John Q. Public does not.

Yes he does.

Nuclear replaces fossil fuels at pennies on the dollar. Government naturally is of two minds about that; its employees would prefer living near a nuclear power station to living near a gas pipeline, but some of their salary, that which would have been gained as tax on that dollar, depends on your having the opposite preference. They try to lead you into this by telling you that's how you feel.

Indeed, that may have been Lapish's errand.

--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen fan
Burn boron in pure oxygen for vehicle power

freezing nuclear waste?!

heard on the radio that a german researcher pretends that (deep) freezing nuclear waste would see it's half life coming down from 100.000 years (give or take a few thousands) to only a 100 years...

I can't seem to find anything else on that...

A few decades' storage, then deep burial, ensures

that nuclear waste is better contained, emits less radiation, and is deeper down than natural radioactivity in the overlying ground. The attempt to raise alarms over it is therefore essentially the same as suggesting saltshakers in the Titanic's pantries threaten to salt the ocean.

The German researchers are petrodollar pandering when they talk about nuclear waste as a toxic legacy to future generations. This lack of integrity would be very sad if their "findings" weren't on a par with it, i.e., crap. Fortunately they are; beta- and alpha-decay have never been hurried, nor need they be.

--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen fan
Burn boron in pure oxygen for vehicle power

Irony of Pro-Nukes

Someone may agree with a technology because it makes good environmental, economic and scientific sense.  That is my reason.  Again, I believe the concept of nuclear power can work if it is allowed too but too many organizations, groups and people have preconceived negative ideas about this technology i.e. waste storage issues, nuclear plant safety and radiological emissions, pollution fears, terrorist attacks, etc., etc.  I say that all of these problems can be overcome as they have in France which generates 60% of its electricity from nuclear sources.  Ever hear of all of these problems from France.  No.  You never hear of any problems from them because its working over there.  Instead of responding from an emotional level with little or no facts to support your argument, try doing some research and supporting your your response with verifiable, scientific fact.

Show me the money

Nuclear power's biggest problems are economic: it is simply no longer competitive with other, newer forms of power generation. The final 20 U.S. reactors cost $3 to $4 billion to build, or some $3,000 to $4,000 per kilowatt of capacity. By contrast, new gas-fired combined cycle plants using the latest jet engine technology cost $400-$600 per kilowatt, and wind turbines are being installed at less than $1,000 per kilowatt.

Even France, which gets more than three-quarters of its electricity from nuclear power, now has a moratorium on nuclear plant construction, and other European countries are debating how quickly to shut their plants down. The only countries still building nuclear power plants are nations such as China, Japan, and possibly Iran, where the electric power industry is still a government sanctioned monopoly that is protected from competition.


http://www.worldwatch.org/node/1646


Showed me the Money

Just for clarification; Yes the fianl 20 reactors were billions of dollars in construction costs, the last one being Limerick Generating Station in Pottstown, PA at more like $10 Billion.  The reason for the high cost as I stated earlier if you read my post, was because of protracted litigation and protests by environmental and special interests groups which drove the initial costs odf construction way up.  General Electric now has a more standardized, smaller, pre-licensed, fixed cost nuclear power plant design which if viable and could be mass built throughout the U.S. with the proper authorization.  This would address some of the outstanding nuclear issues you allude too.

Oh no, not a plane!

I am amazed the amount of environmentalist ignorance that is on this topic. Nuclear energy is probably the only real substitute for coal burning plants that we have now. What would you consider better, a coal plant right near your city, or a nuclear power plant that is miles away from any civilization and out of fallout (in any fallout at all) distance.

Nuclear waste disposal (as said by EnergyDude) would be ascertainable if environmentalist politicians would just loosen up a bit and let the facilities transport their wastes to Yucca.

And looking at accidents, the Chernobyl Plant was maintained by poorly trained engineers that had little idea as to what they were doing. They also made mistakes (human error present) such as running a test that they shouldn't have in the first place. Also the plant was a cryptic model which should never have been in place. (Soviet era power plants were made to produce weapons as well as generate power)

The reason why people distrust nuclear energy is because the hazard of fallout from a melt down. A melt down would most likely never happen if you didn't put ill-trained engineers into the reactors.

Some facts:
-Nuclear power plant core housings are built to withstand Jumbo Jet Airliners Crashing into them.
-Nuclear power plant security is in the top 3 most secured industry in the United States.
-Nuclear power plants CANNOT explode like bombs, the only explosion that may occur is the pressure built by the steam generated by the heat of the reactor.
-Three Mile Island reactor melted down, BUT NO ENVIRONMENTAL CONSEQUENCES HAPPENED, RADIATION WAS CONTAINED.

Take off your blindfolds and look up some information about nuclear energy and open up your minds to other things. Stop being so narrow minded.

Oh my gosh, we know how to research?? Since when?

There are a new types of power plant being R&D'd right now.

One type is a Integral Fast Reactor, which uses the spent fuel from the reactor to help fuel the reactor. Cutting down waste to a fraction of what it was and lessoning the usage of the primary fuel in the reactor.

Yet another is the Liquid Metal Fast Breeder Reactor, which produces more fuel than it consumes. Thus providing a never ending supply of Uranium for it to use. Also providing a surplus of it. It can use lead as a liquid metal to cool it, providing protection and operational temps at a very high level.

Again, do the research before praising the words of a man who doesn't know anything about what he's talking about.

Replying to Matt Painter

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4259 ...

There is a good article to read that addresses your main problem with nuclear power.  I noticed you qualified your statement with the word "could" because you actually have no idea if they would cancel out many of the greenhouse gas reductions.  Don't worry, they don't.  Of course I know your post wasn't so much seeking a real answer as trying to find any reason to be against nuclear power at whatever cost, so I doubt you'll care.

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